Well, I just blew $10 on a Pyrad (blogger.com ad). My 4000 impressions flew by in about 36 hours, and I only got about 17 clicks. If it costs less than that, I'd be in - sure, there's no way of knowing how many hits I'd get, but what the heck, right?

Bumping this one up to the top again.

Are y'all still thinking about doing this in a future MT release?

I would be interested!

Sara

I think it's a great idea, in fact, I can't imagine why there's so much controversy.  You need to place examples there anyways imply for people that don't have vast amounts of HTML experience, it would be open to anyone, it doesn't add a fee to the product and there's no obligation.  I think it's wonderful.

Actually as a non-programmer, certain "paid advertisements" would be of benefit to to me, since I have been trying for some time to obtain the services of someone to design 2 separate custom templates and if, as part of the sign on process, I was offered the opportunity of clicking to various sites that offered these services it would make life marketedly easier.
btw, zagey@optonline.net, i'm still in need

For a while we've been toying with the idea of allowing people to pay for placement of a link in the default templates that are included with Movable Type.

With the success  of text ads on other sites, it seems only natural that I present this idea to the users of MT.

Many a time, I've stumbled onto a MT-powered page that is still using the default template and on the right-hand side is still those oh-too-familiar links. You know:

link
link
link
link
etc...

So, I thought -- why not allow people to advertise their blogs or sites in this space?

The MT user would still be able to delete the pre-inserted links either by manually deleting them or just switching to their own custom template.

But, before doing so, it is very likely that they will click on the default links and (hopefully) like what they see.

Currently, the MT download rate is 300 per week.

We would expect to insert a new batch of links per every 200-300 (tbd) downloads.

There would probably be about 15-20 links per template.

It would be on a first-come, first-serve basis.

We would have the right to reject a site on the basis of objectionable material -- meaning no porn, no hate speech, etc...

Questions for you to answer:

Would you be interested in buying ad space?

How much would you be willing for this sort of service?

Any other comments or questions would be greatly appreciated.

Why so?

I see these ads being more informative than annoying. You would in now way have to keep the list of links on your template. It would really just be a way of letting  other MT users know that your site exists.

I think it could be a great idea, as long as the user is aware (an additional item in the install page?) that those links are in no way binding to the MT license agreement and that they are meant to be impermanent.  It's not like you have to delve into the MT source code to remove the links.

Would the format be just the blog title or would it include the description as well?  In addition, what sort of price structure would be set up for it: per x hundred downloads, for x months, or determined by some other means?

if you add the newsfeed, add me to the list!  :)

(I can see the marketing packet coming together now  :p )

Andy

I'm sure this will get me branded a "curmudgeon", but I'm one of those people who would likely edit out the links, because the site I use MT on is subject-specific, and I limit the links to sites that are relevant to the topic (primary and secondary education).

If I decide to use MT on my general personal site, I suppose I would be willing to leave the links in, but my issue then is that I expect my readers to understand that the links on my site are links I recommend, and these are links that I have no particular connection with but that we use the same software.  In fact, no one actually recommends them; they're there because they were paid for.

Having said that, I wonder how much people will be willing to pay for links that are likely never to see the light of day?

I would like to support this community and, as soon as I finish this post, I'll be going to PayPal to make a donation, but I'm not sure that paid link placement is going to generate much income.  And, because I'm a recovering lawyer, I wonder if this would have an impact on licenses for other software that depend on whether a site carries "advertising" or not.  This is probably at the most attenuated end of that, but it is paid advertising.

Another thought on this matter: how about links that show up in the admin interface? Maybe something that displays when you're in the template sections, there could be a box that says something like: check out these blogs for customization ideas? It could be an XML feed off your server that you update whenever you want.
I'm in favor of you guys doing almost anything you want to the admin side of things, but hesitant to have you modifiying the code that displays in my site (if I'm reading some of the comments above correctly). But that's just my 0.02.

Mena,

Please do not get me wrong. I believe that you guys have a fine product with lots of potential, and I am not against forms of advertisement as long as it is used with the proper discretion. That is why I recommended the use of a standard XML feed as part of the evaluation version which can be optionally disabled for the people who pay. In addition, you could generate revenue by getting money from those people who want to appear on that XML feed. Similar to the list you already have on the MovableType homepage, but on a pay on demand system. One week or a maximum of so many hits would cost $10 or something like that.

I feel bad that both of you are unemployed. With so much talent that you have, this is a real shame. But hang in there, and when the economy improves you will come out of the dip that much better! I have survived a couple of major dips in the economy, and on both occasions I can tell you I came out for the better. Refreshed and ready to go. You two will do the same, I am certain.

There is a big market out there for this type of product, I am positive. If you want to make it more successful make sure that you conduct some type of market analysis so that in addition to the average blow-joes like me (we are sometimes willing to pay, but not that much when you think about it) you can focus better on the businesses that could profit the best from what you have to offer. Have you thought about this?

Sadly, I have no desire to add my weblog(s) to the default templates or to purchase ad space.  After trying out your product, I happily sent in some money to support the development of MT.  I have never looked back.

With your current unemployment status and your desire to generate an income from MT, you are running into the same issues that Noah Grey found when considering producing a retail version of Greymatter.  Plenty of people said that they would pay 'something' for a retail package, questions of software piracy were raised and proposed costs were bandied about.  I have no idea if the situation was ever resolved.  I have not heard of a retail Greymatter program being available, so possibly it never went anywhere.

You have produced an incredible product.  Many people have downloaded it, installed it, received excellent support help from you and are now using MT to maintain their sites.  And I assume a smaller proportion of people have actually given you money.  And I assume an even smaller proportion of people have given you enough money to have their weblog displayed on the 'Recently Updated Blog' list.  

With the software readily downloadable from the internet, the only thing driving people to give you money is their conscience.  The majority of people with conscience are the people who have already given you money.  I honestly think it would be difficult to get money out of the people who are currently using it for free.

A plea for donations worked with Blogger (I supported them and got the stickers) because this was a web-based program.  If the server went down, so did the ability to publish your blog using this program.  With MT, people already have the program and are running it on their site.  If you two shut down production, the people who got the program for free get to keep the program for free because they really don't need you anymore.

How to generate revenue?  The only way I can see is to develop a new version of MT (3.0) that contains features that people would be willing to pay for.  Then, if possible, design the program so that it will not work without an unlock code (perhaps linked to the name of the main blog author).  This will stop the majority of non-SOAP-cgi-php people from getting an illegal copy of the program off of the internet and using it for free.  Someone will inevitibly hack the program and use it for free, but the majority of MT end users are webloggers and hopefully have a conscience about such things.

I don't know if this long post is helpful.  I just think that majority of people who would be willing to give you money have already done so.  The trick will be to come up with an upgrade that these people (and others) would feel is worth paying for.

And then charge $1000 per copy so you can really cash in.

:)

I think that the idea is generally a good one, if and only if MT is ready for prime time pay/no pay versions.

I'd be more than willing to purchase a small adverstisment on other weblogs to drive traffic.

You may want to look at the blogger micro ads, and try to incorporate something more like that. I think that something that makes ads stand out from the others would be more desireable, hence making people more apt to buy one in the long run.

just my 2¢

Although I would probably not participate, if for no other reason than that, as a student, I be too poor, it sounds like a pretty good idea, and certainly does no harm, as long as it is made clear to the new user that these are just as configureable as anything else. (the word 'link' is ridiculously obvious that it is configurable, so leave a few of them at the end, at least)

I am not a big fan of imposing advertisements.  But I can understand that you guys are in need of income in order to fulfill the higher expectations of an ever more successful product. Do not make it too blatent, because you will scare away new users and turn off existing ones (like myself). My honest opinion is that many fine products have been completely ruined by splattering their front-end with gobs of flashy and gaudy advertisements.

Sticking paid advertisements as links in weekly uploaded templates does not make sense. Because the first thing most people do is change the templates to their own needs, including removing the default links (that people paid for). Also this list is static and is focussed on the public who just happens to download this version that week.

Better yet I would think is an XML feed or something similar which is incorporated in the product. This could be changed on a daily basis according to the folks that want to pay for advertisement space. For the so-called evaluation version, this would be a hard-coded part of the product, and later for those who want to donate, they could turn this off. Or even leave it on, as it would provide a nice link automatically.

If you guys want to preserve the appeal of your fine product I would approach this advertising aspect with care. I think that everyone realizes now that this is a necessary evil. In order to survive. Bloggers are smart folks. But there are limits. Keep it please within those limits, make lots of money, and attract even more droves of future-famous bloggers.

Macgeek: These links would in no way be permanent -- just as your template is no way permanent.

I like the newsfeed idea. I'd be more than willing to put it into my blog, just to support the community.

Throwing in my 2 cents...

I guess what I don't understand is how a required newfeed that can be turned off only by paying members is LESS obtrusive than a couple of HTML links that can be looked at, kept, ignored, or immediately deleted by all users.

While I can see the potential for the newsfeed idea, I still think that the HTML link idea is much more easily implemented and would, at the very least,  be a good segue into the other (if it comes to that).

Personally, I would be much more willing to buy an HTML link, and would love to have it as opportunity to find other good blogs.

Mena,

I too am in the ranks of the (involuntarily) unemployed, so you have my sympathy and (I hope) understanding.

You and Ben are at the very top of my list of people to send money to when I am employed again, because I am so absolutely happy with MT. I've been around computers since...well, a VERY long time. Since before personal computers had hard drives, and 64K was a lot of RAM. <*gasp*> I've seen a lot of software as a result (and, as a technical writer by trade, with an emphasis in documenting software, I mean a LOT of software), so I think I can say that I know whereof I speak when I praise your software so highly.

So thank you very much for MT!

As for the link idea, it doesn't sound very practical in terms of permanence. It sounds like a person's link will soon drop out of circulation. But certainly if some people want it as an option, I wouldn't object to it myself. I doubt I would use it unless it were just a few dollars, considering how quickly the link might "cycle out." And of course, as others have mentioned, I could edit the links if I didn't want them, so I don't see a downside to it for anyone except maybe a few curmudgeons who don't want to have to edit the links.

regards,

Marina
http://www.thelighthouseonline.com/marina

While it is paid advertising, and it will be showing up on your site - since you aren't the one getting paid for it, I think your concern wouldn't be a real issue.

Technically, all Geocities, Tripod, etc websites carry advertising on them - I don't see this being treated any differently.

Bret Schlyer
http://neoflux.com

All good suggestions.



We're thinking of pricing per x hundred downloads -- that way if we put off doing a release for a month, everyone gets an equal number of placements.

I'd probably want to do a test run to see how much traffic these links actual generate. I can't imagine someone looking at their default template for the first time and *not* clicking the links on the side. I know I would.

If you're the type of blogger who is always looking for new blogs or sites to read, I think this would be a good chance to be exposed to some interesting sites.

Kiffin: We certainly don't believe in obtrusive advertising. This is why you don't see any advertisements on the Movable Type site. And, I would plan for anything on the templates that would be permanent and obnoxious.



This really isn't that true. I've seen more sites that I can count that are still using the default template or variations.

I'm a bit surprised that you seem so against it -- From looking at your site, I  noticed that in your list of Favorite Blogs -- they appear to be all Movable Type users who have appeared in the donor list? Wouldn't it be a good thing to find more blogs that you may possibly like?

I'm sorry if I sound so defensive, but we're looking for any way to make money in order to spend more time developing MT.

I'm not sure if all of you know this, but neither one of us are employed (not by choice) and we spend over 60 hours a week working on the product.

So, this is where the frustration arises. We want to keep developing at the pace we currently have set, but we still have a bay area rent to pay.

while kgish doesn't appear to wholeheartedly support the idea, i think his post contains a really great idea: an xml newsfeed could really be the key to making this work. how about this: reduce the included "blank" links to 2 or 3. create an mt tag called "mt_otherblogs" or something, placed under the links. then you could rotate the blogs that are fed in from mt headquarters

this would allow you to sell ads based on your (and the buyers) needs rather than having to sync them with mt releases. i would imagine there is even some kind of programming voodoo you could do to monitor how many tags out there are drawing feeds, which would give you more accurate information about how many people left the tag on their pages; this would give ad buyers a more accurate view of what they are buying.

i imagine it would make it even less likely people would remove it from the default template-people would probably replace the links if they had links of their own, but seperating it out...i would imagine most people leave the "syndicate this site" link on thier pages, even though many of them don't use the feature (i would imagine some don't even understand it).

i hope this works...you certainly should feel ok about trying to make money from your work. blogger provides basic blogging for free...i suppose it makes sense to offer your product for free at first, but you've released several stable, full featured versions...it seems fair that future versions should cost money (while possibly still offering a core "lite" version for free). at the very least, users who aren't paying for your product should expect to "put up" with some advertising, and an xml feed (or something similar) that allows you to make substantial proffit from the product will only free you two up to improve upon your elegant program.

good luck!

While I would love to be a pay user of MT, I can't afford to do so and at the same time, I couldn't afford to pay for ad impressions. (Got kids to feed.)
However, I would happily put an xml feed on my site if it helped to support MT. Only on two conditions, though.
1. It remained optional. (Which, if it didn't, what could I do about it.)
2. There were only two or three links at a time. (Or I could configure it in some way.)

I would pay a few bucks to have my site in there. You're probably not going to get a whole lot of hits, but you'll get some and I like the idea of being able to support you guys this way.

I so do not understand this.

(1) The idea doesn't impose ads. They are there during configuration and will likely be removed. They don't clutter up or interfere with the user's blog because they are mainly there for that user to see until he or she removes them.

(2) And your alternative solution is to force-feed an XML feed of what are essentially ads into everyone's MT-powered blog, whether the like it or not, unless they pay.

I don't know. That sounds a lot more imposed than what MT themselves proposed.

I have to agree with Marina on this.  I would be interested in participating but only if it were for a few dollars at most.  I can't afford much right now and can't spend much on a link that may or may not stay in place.  Otherwise, I would be game.  :)

I like the general idea, implentation is of course a factor. In the end, the best possible idea will be implemented and everyone will be happy.

But I do think it's a great idea.

I don't mind the idea of buying an ad as such, but this is blogging... which tends to be fairly personal.

 I don't think that I've seen this scenario being mentioned in the thread, but I could see it happening. User A pays for an ad which appears on User B's blog. User B is diametrically opposed to the views of User A and complains about the ad. This could be a problem. Think gay oriented/straight oriented, religious/atheist, liberal/conservative, etc.

How about selling registered MT users a space for their ad on the MT site?  As long as it's not commercial, I wouldn't mind a sidebar with MT ads, and you know that tons of people visit the support forums, Mena.

Just my two... well, looking at the size of this post... 20 cents worth

i actually LOVE the idea of including the links.  I love links: most bloggers love them also.  It would produce a revenue stream and give the submitted link some exposure.  Since they can be easily removed, I see it as a win/win thing. Its also a good way to introduce newbies into the community.  Look at how popular blogroller is.  We love to save links.

I agree that the developers should be compensated for their product. Personally, i think paying USD$5 would mean very little for individual users (come on! Five measly bucks is a pittance) but collectively, it could mean a lot for the continued good work that we've come to enjoy (and possibly take for granted).

And in return, the insertion of a "newsfeed" style link management system (using XML as mentioned in earlier postings on this topic) as default into new installations of MT would be fair. I would certainly welcome the added traffic, and paying USD$5 is a fair amount as a fee for, say 10,000 "impressions".

So my suggestion to the MT team is such:

Option 1
Users can register to use MT-light that is FREE but has the "link-feed" as a permanent hard coded feature appearing on their site. These users will not have their URL submitted into the "link-feed" system.

Option 2
Users pay USD$5, get MT Regular that has the "link-feed" appearing as a default feature but can be easily removed from their MT Admin panel. These users have the option of submitting their URL into the master MT "link-feed" system for distribution into the MT network. They get 10,000 impressions. They can easily purchase more "airtime" from their MT Admin panel to get more impressions.

Option 3
Users pay USD$30, get MT Premium that protects them for all future upgrades, plus a copy of the FIRST paid-version when it comes out one day. These users get 100,000 impressions in the "link-feed" system with the option of purchasing more.

Just a few items of interest to add:

1. The options above are just an example. The principle is that you give people options that caters for all people with different levels of spending power. Those who can only afford a little amount (such as students) can go for the USD$5 option. Those who can afford a little more, can go for premium.

2. If you are going to implement a "link-feed" system (which i think is a brilliant idea), then its important to also put into place some sort of monitoring/tracking/reporting set up so that people know exactly how their impression "credits" are being "used". E.g. where they're link is turning up, how many click thrus, referral sites, etc.

I know it's been a month since this topic was last posted to, but I thought I'd add my opinion.

I'd be willing to have a section of links titled something like "Other MovableType Users" (or whatever), and then insert an XML feed from MT.  I already have my "In-House Links", which navigate around my site, and a Links page with a ton of URLs to various stuff I like.  (I don't put any of those on the main pages 'cause there are too many of them!)  I also do an xml feed from Slashdot of their articles, and a Javascript list of viruses, etc. from Sophos.com.  I would easily add another xml feed for MT Users.

Maybe have the donation system you currently have (to have their site listed on this site), and then have an "uber donation" system where they would get that *and* inclusion into an xml feed others can use?  I dunno, something like that.

Yes, I think that would be great.  Similar to the way Blogspot is set up -- but with less obtrusive ads -- or rather MT user links.

I to am for anything that helps support this great program.  But again, part of the problem is that there are lazy (and/or uninformed) users out there who download the template and let it stand at that without trying to customize it.  And there really is no excuse for that, what with this forum and all the template sites out there that offer great designs.  Why be one in a sea of lemmings when you can stand out?

I just don't want to see Ben or Mena become discouraged -- the way I suspect Noah Grey was, to where they just abandon this product and leave it to a handful of faithful users to keep patches and updates going.  

On the other hand, it is through exposure to other great sites that implement MT that finally convinced me to use it.  And I'd been beating the GM drum pretty loudly.  Then I saw how many people were using MT and how varied their sites were and what it could do.  I was sold.

I'd be willing to pay perhaps an annual or semi-annual fee for linkage to something somewhere (I'll leave that to your discretion).

Joni
http://www.jonielectric.com

anyone have a link to a blog that still uses the default templates?

The Main Index and Individual Entry, Comment and Trackback pages of my Cook Book are the defaults. There have been a few additional sections to the sidebar on the Index (and I changed the Monthly Archives to Category Archives), and I added a link to the entry category for each post, but otherwise, it's as they came. Same with my Diet Blog. Nothing has been removed, only added. These aren't my main blogs, but ones I don't have time to devote lost of design effort to. I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there doing the same thing.  

Given the changes that can be made via the stylesheet, sometimes it is nice to have the defaults to work with.

there's a category archive?  never knew that...have to go find both i guess...i dont remember the links section though...have to go find it in the templates .....

I just realised my test blog is still very much the defaults. No new stylesheet there! :0

And yes, you can enable Category archiving. And the Links bit has been there since at least 2.21 (when I started using MT).

Do a Google search for "movable type template" sometime. You'll see an awful lot of blog pages that have this as the page title. I can only assume that this was the default page title at some point and none of these people ever tweaked it.

If you just look at the blogs of people who regularly come to the forum you probably won't see a lot of default templates or, like Maddy, they'll be for secondary blogs. We come to this forum because we're interested in learning how to do more with MT. To get a better idea about how many people use the default templates, I think you need to use Google to find MT blogs.